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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 14 of 14. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by 64bowtie on November 3, 2004, at 16:28:08
More to ponder….
Please ponder that usually a husband is best as a partner, a lover, a co-conspirator….lol. A husband that is a parent in the mind can lead to internal conflictedness; demons.
Children begin by good and bad; if it feels good, continue; if it feels bad, stop, and avoid it next time, toooo. By age three, if they do good, they feel the approval. Conversely, if they are bad, approval feelings are withheld. By age seven, they generalize that if they do bad, they are bad, and assume approval will be withheld. Again, if they do good, they assume they are good, and deserve approval.
Approval-vs-love is not much undertaken by therapists, since the dichotomy isn’t well understood. The fact that approval is a province of childhood, and love belongs to adulthood, may be a new concept to many who can’t separate their childhood from what they are today.
Approval feels conditional…. because it is. So, feeling that a person’s love is conditional points toward a vision that may never have seen two people sharing appropriate (not sex) love and loving, over time. I have seen two people loving each other over time. I’ve born witness to the evolution of that love. I can sense that point where it stops being conditional-caring, approval, and becomes unconditional-caring, love.
Abstract reflection, remembering, tends to flatten time when not done carefully and with purpose. It takes discipline to create historical time and chronologies. Sadly, hard work or not, memories not framed correctly in time, are by definition a distortion of whatever happened. If we then overlay a feeling onto the distortion, inevitably we create chaos, and faulty opinions and false beliefs.
I sense that toooo many folks never get past this level for the majority of their grown-up relationships, acquaintances, and contacts. By discussing it here, perhaps we can make a difference sometime, somewhere.
Rod
Posted by ron1953 on November 3, 2004, at 17:43:38
In reply to More to Ponder, posted by 64bowtie on November 3, 2004, at 16:28:08
Rod:
Interesting points to ponder but I believe over-intellectualized. There are some basic 'facts' about the workings of the human brain, especially the limbic system, our 'lizard' brain, which shed light on your ponderings. This part of the brain has no time reference; the reactions it creates now contain the exact same emotional impact that the original wound experienced.
The book "Emotional Intelligence" is a great source of knowledge that may make your ponderings more fruitful - at least more interesting.
Ron
Posted by 64bowtie on November 4, 2004, at 0:00:03
In reply to Re: More to Ponder, posted by ron1953 on November 3, 2004, at 17:43:38
I was busy comparing and contrasting love and approval and you saw me talking about trauma... How did this dichotomous overintellectualization turn into a discussion about trauma? ...and why wasn't I invited?
Rod
Posted by ron1953 on November 4, 2004, at 12:04:45
In reply to Where did I go wrong...... » ron1953, posted by 64bowtie on November 4, 2004, at 0:00:03
Rod:
< Abstract reflection, remembering, tends to flatten time when not done carefully and with purpose. It takes discipline to create historical time and chronologies. Sadly, hard work or not, memories not framed correctly in time, are by definition a distortion of whatever happened. If we then overlay a feeling onto the distortion, inevitably we create chaos, and faulty opinions and false beliefs. >
I was most specifically addressing this paragraph. The realities of our 'old brain' are applicable. I mentioned wounds but not trauma.
If you don't feel that my comments are useful or aren't interested in these aspects, so be it.
Ron
Posted by sunny10 on November 4, 2004, at 13:57:41
In reply to Re: Where did I go wrong......, posted by ron1953 on November 4, 2004, at 12:04:45
ok, boys, stop arguing.....
yes, you are both right (the men are BOTH right- and they're talking about feelings- step back;-)Just kidding- I am living proof of what you BOTH are suggesting.
Yes, Rod, it has been proven, in Freud's mind at least,that there are stages of development which must be passed to get to the next level.
I am still a child, emotionally speaking.
And, yes, Ron, I do have the "scars" to "prove" why I have not passed to the next level. They may not show, but they are there.
Unfortunately, just BECAUSE you know about the stages does not mean being able to live your life differently- thus being more "emotionally evolved" as Rod wishes we could be.
It would be wonderful if knowledge actually did set us free.
I am in a relationship, and I struggle everyday to maintain it. It seems to be going okay, but only because he is as emotionally damaged as I am- and he knows it, too. We both have to struggle to maintain our relationship- isn't that sad? A perfect relationship changes every day along with the two people as they grow. Ours is maintained WITH GREAT EFFORT, because we DON'T grow every day!
Pretty sick, hunh? The love of the emotionally challenged???
-sunny10
Posted by 64bowtie on November 5, 2004, at 7:37:27
In reply to Re: Where did I go wrong......, posted by sunny10 on November 4, 2004, at 13:57:41
Hi, Sunny10,
> ok, boys, stop arguing.....
<<< I have been steadfast that feelings must be (exist), and feelings must be balanced, and feelings is all we mostly do, and "pure" logic is always "purely" abstract, and logic must be balanced and in the mix, and add intention and motives and being into the mix also in balance with the rest of the flavors in the soup (that is us/me).
> Yes, Rod, it has been proven, in Freud's mind at least,that there are stages of development which must be passed to get to the next level.
<<< ...or, John Bradshaw, "Eight Stages of Man" PBS series c1984
> I am still a child, emotionally speaking.
<<< Thank you! Thank you! Thank you so much!!! The tone I hear in your comment is that you got my message(s) without feeling I was judging or belittling. I am hereby and herein, ever-grateful!!! I hoped I hadn't been coming accross as judgemental. Seems that's what you heard.
> Unfortunately, just BECAUSE you know about the stages does not mean being able to live your life differently- thus being more "emotionally evolved" as Rod wishes we could be.
<<< Sage...! Thanks... again...
> It would be wonderful if knowledge actually did set us free.<<< How about HARD WORK supported by knowledge?
> I am in a relationship, and I struggle everyday to maintain it. It seems to be going okay, but only because he is as emotionally damaged as I am- and he knows it, too. We both have to struggle to maintain our relationship- isn't that sad? A perfect relationship changes every day along with the two people as they grow. Ours is maintained WITH GREAT EFFORT, because we DON'T grow every day!
<<< I see a different future for you. I hope I help, a little at least...
Rod
PS: "Birds of a feather flock together" works both ways, negatively impacting us, or perhaps, positively impacting us. Please indulge me as I repeat that as adults we have a well developed keen sense of beauty, that wasn't so functional in our childhood do to genetics that don't unfold till our teens. Much of what goes on in our childhood is induction. Grown-ups induce their crap onto us, and adults show us beauty. We take the crap as bad stuff and take the beauty as good stuff, if we're lucky. Sometimes folks get it backwards according to the grow-ups they depend on. Seek beauty, and seek people who themselves seek beauty. Them birds are good to flock with!
Rod
Posted by 64bowtie on November 5, 2004, at 7:40:50
In reply to Re: Where did I go wrong......, posted by ron1953 on November 4, 2004, at 12:04:45
> If you don't feel that my comments are useful or aren't interested in these aspects, so be it.
>
> Ron<<< Please don't be dismissive. It hurt when I was a child and insults me as an adult.
Rod
Posted by sunny10 on November 5, 2004, at 10:23:18
In reply to Didn't I ask a question? » sunny10, posted by 64bowtie on November 5, 2004, at 7:37:27
I appreciate your "seeing a different future" for me.
If I hadn't understood all of this about myself for the past twenty years(unfortunately for me, I am NOT a child, logically, sigh. It would be easier if I was)
and STILL made the same screwed up choices/ decisions about "love", I might be as hopeful as you seem to be on my behalf.
But, as you say about the feathers, it is difficult to know for sure what is "good" and what is "bad".
I am counting on the fact that my SO and I are both so afraid of being hurt- and both so afraid of hurting anyone else- that the HARD WORK and knowledge that you mentioned may serve to help us provide companionship and respect to each other.
I'm not so sure about "love". We both are so confused by what "love" is supposed to be that we can love the other, but not really feel loved by them, if that makes sense.
I was brought up by parents whose idea of love was neglect (ignoring, mostly) and then physical abuse. My SO doesn't do that to me, so my inner child cannot "accept" that he loves me, although I, as an adult, logically KNOW otherwise. This is where I need to find a therapist who can teach me how to BELIEVE things that I know logically to be true- because all of my "feelings" are screwed up. Mostly I walk around feeling like an idiot because I cannot feel what I know.
My SO was brought up in a "normal" household, where his parents expressed love freely to each other and their two sons, but then, apparently while still proclaiming to "love" his father, his mother left his father for another man when my SO was a teenager- ripping him away from his father who was devastated by the loss of his wife, son, house, et cetera. He was, at under 18, forced to go with his mother- who was following his new stepfather from state to state. His last girlfriend was an alcoholic who "loved him" and then shot herself (she's still alive) when he asked her to go into detox to save their relationship if she loved him. Naturally, he doesn't believe any woman when they say they "love" someone now. He sees men as being the "lovers" and the women are the liars.
For both of us this is difficult to "maintain" a relationship, no matter what we "call" it, but we are trying.
-sunny10
Posted by jlynne on November 5, 2004, at 13:43:08
In reply to Re: Didn't I ask a question? » 64bowtie, posted by sunny10 on November 5, 2004, at 10:23:18
Sunny, it sounds like we are dealing with similar childhood issues, and I would like to share something that my SO has been helping me with.
When I feel deep pain, anger, fear, etc. I am beginning to recognize that the current emotions are just triggering the irrational emotions and subsequent baggage that I improperly processed as a child. As long as I feel that I am in a safe place now (and that is where Ron comes in) I am able to re-frame the current situation in my adult mind and separate the old reactions out and away, allowing myself to get a grip on the reality of the situation and become free from the crippling pain of the past.
It has been like an awakening for me, and is affecting all my relationships, not just mine and Ron's. My older daughter and I have found healing and love, and she is learning the process, too. I am walking in awe every day because of the dramatic changes that are taking place in my life.
There are two books I would like to recommend to you. The first is "Emotional Intelligence", which explains the influence of the original childhood emotions. The second is "Getting the Love You Want" by Harville Hendrix - about improving relationships for established couples.
Here is a link to an interview with Harville Hendrix, which will give you an idea of where he is coming from:
http://www.divorcemagazine.com/cgi-bin/show.cgi?template=article&state=@state@&article=relationships/harvillehendrix. . . jlynne
Posted by sunny10 on November 5, 2004, at 14:16:57
In reply to Re: Didn't I ask a question? » sunny10, posted by jlynne on November 5, 2004, at 13:43:08
Wow- just finished reading the article.... sounds like it perfectly "mirrors" my situation.
You and Ron met here, so you kind of got past the ackward part and that is this;
I KNOW I need work on my interpersonal relationships becuase of the way I was raised.
My SO, on the other hand, is still in denial that he treats women with a "stay back" emotional attitude because of his past.How do I launch this as an idea to "help both of us" ? I do not want him thinking that he is "doing it for me", giving him the role of caretaker rather than partner. I want the whole thing- working on it together as a team so that BOTH of us grow. (The only part of the article that I didn't like was the example of the man who was "reacting with empathy"- bull**t. It takes two to be in a relationship, be it a healthy on or an unhealthy one.)
Any suggestions? If I can talk him into reading it, too , I think I'll buy the book...
-sunny10
Posted by jlynne on November 5, 2004, at 14:46:39
In reply to Re: Didn't I ask a question? » jlynne, posted by sunny10 on November 5, 2004, at 14:16:57
>(The only part of the article that I didn't like was the example of the man who was "reacting with empathy"- bull**t. It takes two to be in a relationship, be it a healthy on or an unhealthy one.)
>Sunny, I think the empathy example is meant for both partners to relate to - feeling safe is critical on both sides.
Perhaps you could print the interview and ask your SO to read it and tell you what he thinks. The principles of Hendrix theories are good, solid stuff, and I know that I can apply them to my own life with or without Ron's help, but in order for our relationship to remain healthy I do believe that it does take two . . . and so does Ron.
I would encourage you to read the book, anyway, even if SO doesn't want to. As you read and gain insight, you will be able to share it with SO and possibly spark his interest in the partnership. Ron read the book long before he ever met me, and he has been able to initiate significant changes in his own life on his own already.
The insights that I have gained were facilitated by Ron's being able to understand and relate the principles to me - I hadn't read the book when I began experiencing the changes in myself. Ron created a safe environment for me to take the risks, and in turn I have been able to offer him the same. Agreed, if I hadn't grasped the concepts, there would have been a dead end, but Ron did his homework, it made sense to me, and now we are both on the same journey, as equals.
We are now reading "Keeping the Love You Find", by Hendrix, which is the same principles but tailored for singles looking for a lasting relationship. You should be able to find either book used on Amazon in paperback - we got it for $1.99.
Good luck, Sunny - I am pulling for you.
. . . jlynne
Posted by sunny10 on November 8, 2004, at 11:38:37
In reply to Re: Didn't I ask a question?, posted by jlynne on November 5, 2004, at 14:46:39
Thanks for the info (and your best wishes, of course!)
This weekend it wasn't coke, but an ENTIRE bottle of rum on Friday night. We had a long conversation last week- so I know what he is going through right now, but I can't DEAL with him when he self-medicates this way!
At first, he was a happy drunk, so I was trying to utilize the three steps of communication ON him- without explaining what I was doing. It had absolutely ZERO effect on him, but when I started getting upset (inner child upset) with the manner in which he was speaking to me, I managed to get mad (and just a little afraid) instead of flying into a panic and running out of the house. I did sleep in a different bedroom, but we were then able to discuss it the next morning. And, yes, he apologized and didn't get drunk Saturday and Sunday.
So, I guess it WAS helpful when just I practiced it. For my own peace of mind; it kept me more focused on the conversation and less focused on my REACTIONS to it... If I could just get HIM to practice the communication methods (with everyone, not just me)then he wouldn't GET so freaked out and self-medicate!
Thanks again,
Sunny10
Posted by jlynne on November 8, 2004, at 13:03:30
In reply to Re: Didn't I ask a question? » jlynne, posted by sunny10 on November 8, 2004, at 11:38:37
It sounds like you discovered something exciting about yourself, sunny . . . you CAN change your reactions, eh? And, while you cannot control SO's actions, you were able to affect a change in the cycle by not feeding into it in the old, neurotic way. Give yourself a pat on the back, girl . . . this was a HUGE thing you did. I am loving this whole concept . . . it is very hard work, but the rewards are unbelievable.
Thank you for sharing.
. . . jlynne
Posted by sunny10 on November 8, 2004, at 13:29:04
In reply to Sunny » sunny10, posted by jlynne on November 8, 2004, at 13:03:30
I'm trying.... I'm trying every day.
This is the end of the thread.
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