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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
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Posted by Toph on February 14, 2005, at 7:01:09
In reply to Re: Can euthanasia be an act of love? (trigger) » Toph, posted by jujube on February 13, 2005, at 16:07:55
I have siimilar thoughts as you, jujube, though in case something terrible should happen to my wife, it is my responsibility as her health car agent to respect her opposing views about expraordinary medical interventions.
In the Netheralands, infamous for their liberal views on end of life decision-making, they believe that Americans have got the whole thing backwards. It is my understanding that in that country only physician assisted suicide is permitted whereby competent critically ill patients decide to commit suicide via physicians. Here, we allow surrogates via power of attorneys for health care documents to consent to terminating life supports on incompetent indiviuals who cannot speak for themselves or change their minds since the execution of the document. The former is a conscious directive, the later, a so-called advance directive.
Complicated stuff, but something everyone of us should be discussing with our closest friends and partners.
Toph
Posted by sunny10 on February 14, 2005, at 8:47:00
In reply to Re: actsof love (trigger) » jujube, posted by Toph on February 14, 2005, at 7:01:09
my father was in the hospital last week after a heart attack. Apparently, he wanted to die at home because tests at the hospital revealed that he had already had a couple small heart attacks that he didn't tell anyone about, AND he had had blood in his stool for at least a week.
His test revealed that he not only did he have anemia and those heart attacks, but he was diabetic, his blood pressure was extremely low, and he has two partially blocked arteries and one fully blocked artery in his heart. He is 80. He is not a candidate for any type of surgical intervention because of his various illness, age and current weakness.
He was given medication for the blocked arteries and sent home on Friday. He has said that he wants to die. But he means that he wants to die at home with his family around him, not in a sterile hospital environment. His wife, his step-daughter, and his son (my brother), had him committed yesterday to the Geriatric Psychiatric Ward at Thomas Jefferson Hospital. They refuse to accept that he could be preparing for death, that he is ready and willing to finish the circle of life. They say that he is so depressed that he doesn't know what he is saying. They want to "cure" him.
I know my father as a Russian Bear. So full of dignity that a pre-teen girl (me) was beaten for daring to ever disagree with him. He lived a great, meaningful life. He was a popular figure in our city- brought entertainers from everywhere to perform in our theaters, knew politicians and other great personages; he was respected for the work and dedication he provided to the city and his friends.
And now, he can not make it to the bathroom on his own without falling (he has tried numberous times- his doctor is losing patience with him). He is much too proud of a man to ever want his butt wiped by someone else, to need his meals brought to him, or any of the other ways that provide care for their eldery, bedridden relatives. He simply cannot bear the thought. He stopped eating, drinking, and taking the medications the doctors have prescribed. He wants a meaningful death without drugs to cloud the way.
He is not depressed, he is resigned. He has no interest in merely existing. But now his family has committed him. I am so disgusted with them that I don't even know what to say. My brother called me with the information at about 4 pm yesterday (you'll note that I was not invited to be a part of this). He had phone numbers, room number, et cetera to pass along. He told me they wanted to "cure the depression" so that Dad could go back to his life. I asked him what is was that they expected to occur. He got angry and said that plenty of people go to movies and the theaters in wheelchairs and that Dad was too proud. A huge part of me wanted to scream, "maybe 80 years of movies and theater are enough for him! Proud is all that he has ever been and you want to strip away your own father's dignity?!?!", but I kept my mouth shut and told him that I wasn't sure why he had given me the hospital information. The rest of the family is well aware of my feelings on the subject (I had spoken to my brother and step-sister- I am sure that they have discussed it with my step-mother). As they knew I was not prepared to back them in their "curing", the only thing I could do was respect their decision and stay away and not call because I will NOT pretend to feel the same way that they do.
But another part of me wants to go visit my dad and tell him that someone is on his side. That I understand the concept of desiring quality of life over quantity. This part want sto march over to that hospital, ask him if he wants to come home with me and just take him. But I know my family; they would put me away for murder when he did peacefully pass on, simply because I had "removed him from care". And still another wants to just bury my head in the sand and not let any of this affect me since this is the same man who had never apologized for beating me when I was young and I know that his pride would never allow him to do so, either.
Toph, you certainly know how to bring up a subject.... anybody have any advice for me?
thanks,(and sorry for ranting and venting....)
sunny10
Posted by saw on February 14, 2005, at 9:00:21
In reply to Re: Major Trigger for me today, Toph, posted by sunny10 on February 14, 2005, at 8:47:00
I don't know what to say Sunny - except that your post was beautiful.
Oh dear - I don't know what else to say.
Sabrina
Posted by sunny10 on February 14, 2005, at 9:12:09
In reply to Re: Major Trigger for me today » sunny10, posted by saw on February 14, 2005, at 9:00:21
did I mention that I love you?
You have been rather quiet lately. I hope you are feeling okay.
And due to your recent quietude, I am doubly thankful for your loving post.
(mwah),
sunny10
Posted by Toph on February 14, 2005, at 10:20:01
In reply to Re: Major Trigger for me today, Toph, posted by sunny10 on February 14, 2005, at 8:47:00
Hi sunny,
You seem to have come to peace with your past, especially since roles have reversed and he is the helpless "child" now. I live these dramas at work every day. Does commited mean a mental health commitment? The laws in your state may allow an individual to execute a Power of Attorney for Health Care, but probably not since one must be "of sound mind." If you wanted to go to war with your relatives you could petition through a private attorney for temporary guardianship to wrestle control of your father away from them and then consent to whatever you deemed to be in his best interests, including the principle of substitute judgement or essentially his desires. Anyway, what this should be about is what is best for your Dad. Maybe all you will be allowed to do in this circumstance is stand by his side, understand his Hemingwayesque desire to snuff out a spent candle with hardly any wick remaining, and, if you have it in you, to forgive him for harming you as you forgive youself for being so harmed.Afterall,he must have done something right as a father if he had anything to do with how his lovely daughter turned out.
Toph
Posted by sunny10 on February 14, 2005, at 11:03:19
In reply to Re: Major Trigger for me today » sunny10, posted by Toph on February 14, 2005, at 10:20:01
yes, they commited him to a pysch-ward. They will argue that he is not of sound mind.
I have no money with which to hire a law- and my father would hate that it was happening, anyway.
No, he didn't do anything right at all- he only knew me from 7-15 (married my mom when I was nine; they sent me to boarding school when I was 15 and were divorced by the time I got out.)
Numerous therapists and I have done a decent job of raising me and the love came from my god-mother whenever I got a chance to see her. (My father did not even give me a chance to say goodbye to my godmother thirteen years ago- he didn't want to tell me she was in the hospital.)
There is a lot of ambivalence flowing through me at the moment...
I'm sure it shows- sorry I sound so hateful...sunny10
Posted by jujube on February 14, 2005, at 11:25:09
In reply to Re: Major Trigger for me today, posted by sunny10 on February 14, 2005, at 11:03:19
((((Sunny)))
I am so sorry for what you are going through.
And, you are not hateful, not by a longshot! It takes a good person to want to see someone suffering treated compassionately and humanely, even when others may find this objectionable. I think it is hard for some people to just let go. They can't move beyond their own pain and impending sense of loss enough to see just how much another is suffering and to try to respect their wishes and allow them their dignity in their last days.
My thoughts are with you during this difficult time. Be strong and be well.
Tamara
Posted by jujube on February 14, 2005, at 11:55:58
In reply to Re: actsof love (trigger) » jujube, posted by Toph on February 14, 2005, at 7:01:09
Yes, you are so right, it is extremely complicated. And, it is, and will likely continue to be, a contentious and potentially divisive societal debate, albeit one that needs to take place in earnest I would think. Nevertheless, no matter how much it would pain me to see someone I loved wasting away in a hospital, unable to care for themself, I would not disregard their wishes. I guess it comes down to respect and dignity (which, in these cases, can be at odds with each other).
Just an aside, did you ever see the show Picket Fences? I saw it a couple of times, and there was one episode that centered around the right to die. It was about ten years ago, and it was very interesting and thought provoking for me.
Take care Toph.
Tamara
> I have siimilar thoughts as you, jujube, though in case something terrible should happen to my wife, it is my responsibility as her health car agent to respect her opposing views about expraordinary medical interventions.
>
> In the Netheralands, infamous for their liberal views on end of life decision-making, they believe that Americans have got the whole thing backwards. It is my understanding that in that country only physician assisted suicide is permitted whereby competent critically ill patients decide to commit suicide via physicians. Here, we allow surrogates via power of attorneys for health care documents to consent to terminating life supports on incompetent indiviuals who cannot speak for themselves or change their minds since the execution of the document. The former is a conscious directive, the later, a so-called advance directive.
>
> Complicated stuff, but something everyone of us should be discussing with our closest friends and partners.
>
> Toph
Posted by Toph on February 14, 2005, at 12:17:51
In reply to Re: actsof love (trigger) » Toph, posted by jujube on February 14, 2005, at 11:55:58
Posted by Toph on February 14, 2005, at 12:48:07
In reply to Re: Major Trigger for me today, posted by sunny10 on February 14, 2005, at 11:03:19
sunny,
Haven't I mentioned to you in the past about how pleasant you always seem to be? I should have remembered that we all have a reason to be here. You should be very proud that you have transcended much of the inadequacies of the people you were supposed to be able count on as a young girl.
Maybe this is a dumb analogy but children are like cars - they can take a lot of bumps and dings and still keep on running. I hope that you have found someone who can work a few of those dents out with you. Keep hanging in there sunny.
Toph
Posted by sunny10 on February 14, 2005, at 14:25:59
In reply to Re: Major Trigger for me today, posted by Toph on February 14, 2005, at 12:48:07
I think what needs to occur is a legal distinction between assisted euthanasia and honoring a person's inalienable rights
1)life
2)liberty
3)pursuit of happinessif those conditions are no possible, they have the right to
1) die with dignityThere is a huge difference between allowing someone to die of old age and assisting in a suicide!
I have attempted suicide three times. Each time was met with medical intervention; then pyschological therapies and medication.
And the doctor's were correct in doing so- I suffer from recurrent major depression and when those attempts occur, I am not making a rational decision based on reality.
My father is. Yes, he has symptoms of depression now; but he was less depressed when he was being left alone!!!
Posted by jujube on February 14, 2005, at 14:39:31
In reply to Re: Toph and jujube, posted by sunny10 on February 14, 2005, at 14:25:59
Sunny,
I agree with you. Euthanasia and the right to die is, to me, about dying with dignity at a time when physical illness, and resulting medical interventions, have stripped an individual of any quality of life and their ability to pursue their inalienable rights. And, I think "assisted suicide" in such instances is more than an unfortunate choice of words. It would be like calling someone a murderer because they take the decision to withdraw life-support from a loved one who is being kept alive by machines. I don't know if I am making any sense. I hope I haven't upset you by my expressing my views. It was not my intention. If I did, I'm sorry.
Tamara
I think "assisted suicide" is more than an unfortunate choice of words you
> I think what needs to occur is a legal distinction between assisted euthanasia and honoring a person's inalienable rights
> 1)life
> 2)liberty
> 3)pursuit of happiness
>
> if those conditions are no possible, they have the right to
> 1) die with dignity
>
> There is a huge difference between allowing someone to die of old age and assisting in a suicide!
>
> I have attempted suicide three times. Each time was met with medical intervention; then pyschological therapies and medication.
>
> And the doctor's were correct in doing so- I suffer from recurrent major depression and when those attempts occur, I am not making a rational decision based on reality.
>
> My father is. Yes, he has symptoms of depression now; but he was less depressed when he was being left alone!!!
>
>
>
>
>
>
Posted by sunny10 on February 14, 2005, at 15:01:30
In reply to Re: Toph and jujube - trigger » sunny10, posted by jujube on February 14, 2005, at 14:39:31
You didn't upset me !! I was already upset when I jumped on this thread- you have actually made me feel understood and have validated my feelings, for which I thank you IMMENSELY !!!!
Posted by Susan47 on February 14, 2005, at 15:17:50
In reply to Re: Goodness NO jujube!, posted by sunny10 on February 14, 2005, at 15:01:30
I agree with both of you, Jujube you said it so well. Sunny, I'm sorry I just caught up with your thread. I'm so sorry for what you and your father are going through. You're so generous emotionally. That makes you so very beautiful, and fragile too, because everything that's truly beautiful is also delicate and easily broken. Remember yourself in all of this. My first instinct when reading was, can you take him out of hospital and take care of him, blah blah what a wonderful opportunity ... but it really doesn't seem reasonable. Maybe the thing you can do right now is just see him as much as you feel you want to, and let him know you support his desire to let go of life now. You know your family is in denial, they've proven it beyond a doubt. Their grief moves very quickly, perhaps? Perhaps in a year all this will be forgotten by them, as well. But not by you. You are actually taking the time to care very deeply. (((Sunny10)))
Posted by jujube on February 14, 2005, at 18:01:53
In reply to Re: Goodness NO jujube!, posted by sunny10 on February 14, 2005, at 15:01:30
Posted by Toph on February 14, 2005, at 19:39:18
In reply to Re: Toph and jujube, posted by sunny10 on February 14, 2005, at 14:25:59
Sorry to get all legalistic and all. I'm glad you weren't angry at us for discussing the various perspectives, sunny.
The bottom line is that I love my wife very much. I really don't know what I'd do if faced with being a participant in losing her forever. I also don't know how I will feel about dying when it becomes an inevitability for me. There is just a touch of irony in the thought that for my whole life I have struggled to appreciate being alive, and then when it's my time to go, someone else will force me to linger.
Toph
Posted by Tabitha on February 15, 2005, at 0:38:21
In reply to Can euthanasia be an act of love? (trigger), posted by Toph on February 13, 2005, at 15:37:44
Disability rights groups have protested that movie for a lot of reasons. They site several innacuracies in the film, including the fact that since 1990 a patient has the right to refuse care. Since the Hilary Swank character was conscious, all she had to do was ask the health workers to turn off the ventilator machine and they'd be obligated to comply.
Of course it was much more dramatic with her having to persuade Clint Eastwood to do it, and trying to do it herself through the tongue biting and all.
Posted by Toph on February 15, 2005, at 10:38:12
In reply to Re: Can euthanasia be an act of love? (trigger), posted by Tabitha on February 15, 2005, at 0:38:21
> ...all she had to do was ask the health workers to turn off the ventilator machine and they'd be obligated to comply.
>As I understand it, that's correct Tabitha. Unfortuately, nurses can only remove life supports upon the order of the treating physician. Some doctors will not terminate life sustaning treatment because of their personal belifs or because of a perverse interpretation of the do no harm provision of the Hippocratic oath. Then there's the belief that an individual who is suicidal is prima facial evidence of mental illness. Boy, I'd be depressed too if I had a brain injury or spinal cord injury that rendered me totally dependent on others for my basic needs. Nothing like laying in your feces for hours, the smell of necrotic flesh from decubitus ulcers or a male nurse changing your Foley catheter routinely. Of course, there's always the utter torture of an untreatable brain tumor to cause someone to beg for merciful relief.
I understand the point of view of the disabilities advocates who are concerned about euthanasia as an act of expediancy. I believe that for some it is an act of love.
Ironically this was in today's Tribune. Sometimes we treat animals more humanely than humans.
*One of city's most special gorillas dies*
By William Mullen
Tribune staff reporter
Published February 15, 2005
Kumba, who made history in 1970 as the city's first captive-born gorilla, was euthanized Saturday by keepers at Lincoln Park Zoo after years of slow deterioration caused by kidney failure..."...Losing an animal is the most difficult part of working at the zoo, and it was really tough to say goodbye to Kumba," said Robyn Barbiers, the zoo's general curator.
"For the past few years, we have been closely watching Kumba because of her reduced renal [kidney] function, and we have administered a variety of treatments, but her condition continued to deteriorate," she said. "It became evident that she was dying."
Kumba would have turned 35 in July. Since November, Barbiers said, her health had been in a tailspin as she lost weight and became lethargic. Her system had stopped metabolizing foods, and she had lost interest in eating.
On Saturday zoo veterinarians and ape-house keepers anesthetized her for another round of tests with a prior agreement that, if her condition showed no hope of improvement, they would euthanize Kumba to stop her suffering...
Copyright © 2005, Chicago Tribune
Posted by sunny10 on February 15, 2005, at 11:48:52
In reply to Re: Can euthanasia be an act of love? (trigger), posted by Toph on February 15, 2005, at 10:38:12
I have been doing some reading regarding the legalities, et cetera.
It is all what Toph said and more. Interestingly, if you are lucky enough to be in a hospice care facility, your wishes to refuse food and water are granted. But in a hospital (and, apparently, in my father's own home) your right is rescinded for the reasons Toph mentioned. Prima facia "incompetence due to depression" or that Hippocratic oath. You are, however, solely within your rights to sign yourself out of a hospital against medical advice if you sign their little piece of paper. Only problem comes when your family refuses to give you a ride home and you are too feeble to get there under your own steam...
It all stinks...yes, we are kinder to our animals than we are to our relatives.
Posted by Tabitha on February 15, 2005, at 14:16:34
In reply to Re: Can euthanasia be an act of love? (trigger), posted by sunny10 on February 15, 2005, at 11:48:52
Interesting. Most of what I read was on the NotDeadYet site or linked there. That person has a pretty different take on the issues about life with spinal cord injury, level of depression, incidence of bedsores, etc, and he sites a few research studies. It sounds like the satisfaction with life increases the longer the person has lived with the injury. Humans can be amazingly adapatable. I had quite a bit of sympathy for his points after reading the arguments. I mean, we all live with disabilities too, right? But I think I'm straying off topic a bit.
Posted by Toph on February 15, 2005, at 16:24:56
In reply to Re: Can euthanasia be an act of love? (trigger), posted by Tabitha on February 15, 2005, at 14:16:34
I don't think you're off topic Tabitha. It's all about choice, the individual's choice and no one else's.
Toph
Posted by sunny10 on February 16, 2005, at 8:17:21
In reply to Re: Can euthanasia be an act of love? (trigger) » Tabitha, posted by Toph on February 15, 2005, at 16:24:56
the most important thing is that the PERSON have rights... and each person is different- thus wishes are different.
Every wish is as "real" as another. There is not room for "true" and "false" on this subject IMO.
Posted by TamaraJ on February 24, 2005, at 11:22:52
In reply to Can euthanasia be an act of love? (trigger), posted by Toph on February 13, 2005, at 15:37:44
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20050224/ap_on_re_us/brain_damaged_woman
Posted by rainbowbrite on February 24, 2005, at 19:17:43
In reply to In the news (possible trigger), posted by TamaraJ on February 24, 2005, at 11:22:52
This story is breaking my heart! How can they do this if it will cause her pain :(
Posted by Toph on March 1, 2005, at 16:03:34
In reply to In the news (possible trigger), posted by TamaraJ on February 24, 2005, at 11:22:52
It's hard to sort though the media frenzy of this emotionally charged case involving a governor's political agenda, a conservative Supreme Court's finding of the unconstitutional misuse of power, a family feud and a brain damaged woman who cannot tell us if she would like to die naturally or be kept alive artificially in her current state. Without knowing Terri personally, its hard to now the truth for certain. The stench overwhelms me though.
Toph
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