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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 21 to 45 of 45. Go back in thread:
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 3, 2005, at 12:52:43
In reply to Re: On the other hand... » Larry Hoover, posted by sunny10 on May 3, 2005, at 11:25:39
Maybe it's better to just jump in on a new page.
My post was about trying to make it work, *with him*. What I just read is how you can't trust him to do what you need him to do to make it work. And that you may need to let him go?
That's what I'm hearing you say, as a theme.
Is that a fair summation?
What you're asking of him is a tall order. The implications are that he won't meet those expectations, right?
With his mother as an enabler, and his current behaviour not much different than before, what can you reasonably expect from him?
I'm sorry if you thought I was trying to set your priorities. Far from it. I was just trying to give examples.
Boundaries work both ways. They limit you, too. They help in future decision making. They clarify just when enough is enough.
What in this mess is your sh*t? And what is his sh*t? Which of those do you have the ability to change?
You've given him lots of second chances. What has he given you, in return?
Sure, write a letter. Excellent idea. It clarifies what you are thinking. It links thoughts to emotions.
When you think you have your letter ready, print it off and read it out loud. Read it like you were in drama class, and you're bringing the words alive. Like he could actually hear you saying those things.
Saying things aloud is more potent than typing them. Trust me on that.
And see if you haven't purged some of this mental churning, by doing that. By writing it all out, and reading it aloud.
It's going to be all right, in the end. And, if it's not all right, it's not the end.
It's going to be okay, sunny. Probably not today, but soon. It's going to be OK.
Best,
Lar
Posted by sunny10 on May 3, 2005, at 14:19:07
In reply to Re: On the other hand... » sunny10, posted by Larry Hoover on May 3, 2005, at 12:52:43
again, I think I am just not making sense!
I DON'T want to think about this as "being the end". And I DON'T know WHAT he is or isn't doing at his mom's- and THAT'S my problem. My problem is that if he doesn't COMMUNICATE with me, how will I know WHAT he is doing?!?!?
MY issue is that I can't trust someone who is not communicating with me. HIS issue is that his communication skills STINK! He is perfectly capable of having a logocal, bussinesslike conversation, but when it comes to sharing feelings, asking for help, et cetera, it is almost non-existent. If you recall, I wrote something about this to you about the men raised here in my part of the country. And HE KNOWS that in order for a relationship to be equal and healthy in 2005, he needs to learn how to open up.
But as we all know, "knowing it vs doing it" are two different things. I want him to understand that if he's open with me, I CAN learn to trust him again. But it's hard to trust a brick wall, you know?!?
And yes, what I am asking is a tall order. But he is the one who wants to "live without chemicals" without the benefit of NA. Doesn't NA say that amends must be made, answering the call to accountability must be done, and the rest of what I've outlined in order for a person to truly understand what their addiction did to their lives and just how bad that life actually was- that it really didn't make them as happy as the drug let them THINK they were? Isn't that how you learn to embrace a life without drugs? I think he's perfectly capable of meeting those expectations- I'm just not sure how one gets past the denial stage and begins to take these steps...
I don't know that his mom IS an enabler...I don't know that he IS doing anything wrong at all besides not being open with me. I know that he is ashamed that this has happened and that talking about it and taking responsibility for it is difficult, but I don't want him to push it under the rug and pretend it never happened!
I perfectly understand that boundaries limit me, too. But if there were some in place, as least I would know what he needs and expects from me as well as what I expect from him! It is the not knowing that is driving me crazy!
I've mentioned above which is my sh*t and which is his... I can only change mine. And the letter that I am thinking of writing is the only way for me to "change" the situation for me. I need answers to these boundary questions. I'm not trying to change him anymore than he would be "changed" by learning to live clean of drugs; which is what he says he wants. And I know that only he can decide if he really wants a life without drugs and is willing to make the changes he needs to make to accomplish that. But he needs to communicate that decision to me with ACTIONS AND words.
If he's not interested in working out his issues, then you're right, there can be no "us". But he says that he is- he just needs more time... I need him to let me know what kind of TIME he is talking about.
Didn't you say that you had had substance issues in the past? Did everyone just give up loving you and walk away? If I'm mistaken, I'm sorry...even though I'd still like to know what you WOULD want if you were the one recovering...
I'll try writing the letter tonight...
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 3, 2005, at 15:35:59
In reply to Re: On the other hand..., posted by sunny10 on May 3, 2005, at 14:19:07
I'm sorry, sunny. Obviously, I'm not understanding things very well. I'll not comment any further.
Yes, I have had a lot of interaction with 12-steps, AA, NA, ACOA. I also use many of those principles in day to day life. I'm grateful for the insight I've obtained from working the steps.
Geez, I hope I'm not out of line to suggest you live it one day at a time, as best you can. Deal with each issue when it comes up, rather than all at once.
You want him to do these things. He may or may not do them. He may or may not be able to do them. In time, you'll know.
Lar
Posted by Tamar on May 3, 2005, at 16:21:04
In reply to Re: On the other hand..., posted by sunny10 on May 3, 2005, at 14:19:07
Hi Sunny,
I'm just wondering if I understood you correctly. Did you say your SO has refused to go to NA because he thinks he can sort it out himself?
If so, are you prepared to accept that? Do you think he can do it?
Sorry for all the questions - I might have missed something. Just looking for clarification.
T
Posted by gardenergirl on May 3, 2005, at 16:27:39
In reply to Re: On the other hand... » sunny10, posted by Larry Hoover on May 3, 2005, at 7:40:05
Wonderful thoughts and advice.
You are one heck of a guy.
gg
Posted by Damos on May 3, 2005, at 22:18:23
In reply to Re: On the other hand..., posted by sunny10 on May 3, 2005, at 14:19:07
I greatly admire your strength, courage, tenacity and the way you long to love and be loved among other things. You amaze me Sunny you really do.
The only thing I can suggest that I have learned too slowly over way to long is to release my emotional attachment to whether X or Y happens or not. I don't love any less (at least I try not to) I just try not to live waiting for a call and loading whether I get one or not up with all kinds of other stuff that I have no control over. Fail at it over and over again but I try and it helps.
You've done so much more that I think I could have in your place and I just hope your SO realises what a precious love he's risking. Only he can decide whether the agreements, commitments and boundaries you've made are as important to him as they are to you and whether your feelings are important enough to him to acknowledge, honour and respect. You've done all you can, and as hard as it is you need to try and let it unfold in whatever way it will.
Hoping for good things for you Sunny, only good things.
Posted by sunny10 on May 4, 2005, at 8:04:34
In reply to Whether you realise it or not » sunny10, posted by Damos on May 3, 2005, at 22:18:23
I have listened to all of you- really I have.
I know it doesn't seem like that.
The most important thing to me right now is to remove the huge letter D from my forehead (doormat). By asking for an indeterminate amount of "time", he is in the position of calling all of the shots and leaving me with no choices, no say about anyhting at all. And that does not make a healthy beginning to rebuilding a relationship
as we both say we want to do.I have taken everything in that you've all had to say, held it up to the teachings of the Serenity Prayer, and decided that the only thing I can change about the situation is explaining exactly how I feel and what my expectations are in light of the promises he has made.
I wrote a seven page letter last night outlining how I saw our relationship evolve from when we first met, up to and including the argument that ended with me being strangled. It described how I saw our relationship before, and then including, his substance use and how it affected me. I ended the letter by explaining that although I understood his need for time to learn how to live chemical free, I needed us to develop some kind of time line that I could use to feel a part of what was going on, instead of him refusing to "talk about it right now", which only leaves me in limbo and confused.
I suggested creating boundaries that protect both him and me from the confusion we're lost in and stressed about right now. I told him that I loved him and that he knows that I am a "fraidy-cat", so the fact that I was willing to do all this should show him exactly how much I love him.
That was all I could do to "change" the situation for me. When he receives the letter, he will see our relationship from my point of view. That is the only thing I could change; so I did.
If he decides that he is not willing to do anything- or refutes anything that I had written- or decides that I am too high-maintenance, he will tell me it's over. And there is nothing I can do about it.
If he can find himself agreeing that we need those "ground rules" to lessen the tension, he will call me to discuss the letter and how we can set up the types of boundaries I suggested that will ease some of the confusion for both of us.
I can't know the outcome, but I can know that I've done all I can do to change the situation for myself.
I hope you all can support me in this, though I understand that you must feel I am beating a dead horse with this subject.
-sunny10
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 4, 2005, at 9:41:57
In reply to Re: I know you're all sick of this issue right now, posted by sunny10 on May 4, 2005, at 8:04:34
> I can't know the outcome, but I can know that I've done all I can do to change the situation for myself.
Yes. Yes. Oh, I am so relieved. Yes.
> I hope you all can support me in this,
No "buts", sunny.
Way to go.
Lar
Posted by sunny10 on May 4, 2005, at 9:55:17
In reply to Re: I'm NOT sick of this issue right now » sunny10, posted by Larry Hoover on May 4, 2005, at 9:41:57
now all I have to do is wait....
I've done all I can.
Posted by Susan47 on May 4, 2005, at 10:54:50
In reply to Re: I know you're all sick of this issue right now, posted by sunny10 on May 4, 2005, at 8:04:34
What you did with the letter-writing, that was what I did too in one relationship that was, I hate to say it because it was no bearing on the outcome of yours, obviously, but the relationship was abusive and ill-balanced and ending. And he'd read the letters with great interest, every time, and things would change a titch for a little while but only enough so that he was always getting just what he wanted, no less. But in the end, I gave him more, a lot more. And I think he learned something about manipulation, and that's the first time I've ever said that and seen it for what it truly was. I used to feel so guilty and so bad about myself for "loving" him so much, and I see now that, finally, I see it, you know, that he was manipulating my love from the very beginning, that's the type of person he just is. I met him again about fifteen years later, and the *sshole had the temerity to suggest that we should "make love" .. now mind you, for some reason we'd met at the bar, dancing or something I don't even remember, and we decided we both didn't want to sleep alone, so I did bring him home and we did sleep together, but no sex. But the next morning he tried, calling it "making love" and I'm afraid, well actually I'm happy quite happy to say that I verbally slapped him with that one. I said with the things that happened in our relationship and the way you dumped me, how can you ever call what we did and what you want to do, "making love"? I feel sorry for you" I said, and it felt good, because I knew then and I know now that I was right. I think he's still single. He'll be almost fifty now. Fireman, you know?
Posted by Susan47 on May 4, 2005, at 10:58:23
In reply to Re: thanks » Larry Hoover, posted by sunny10 on May 4, 2005, at 9:55:17
Yes, go Sunny, it's a good feeling, it's a wonderful feeling to have communicated yourself. Because you can't be ignored anymore, when it's in writing.
I hope he can read with his heart as well as his mind. Sigh. I'm waiting with you, I hope that's okay, in spite of having my own issues around this, I'm still supporting you the best way I know right now.
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 4, 2005, at 11:05:44
In reply to ((((Lar)))) » Larry Hoover, posted by gardenergirl on May 3, 2005, at 16:27:39
> Wonderful thoughts and advice.
>
> You are one heck of a guy.
>
> ggThanks, gg. :-)
Posted by sunny10 on May 4, 2005, at 12:01:44
In reply to Re: thanks, posted by Susan47 on May 4, 2005, at 10:58:23
I am trying not to lean on you on this one because I know you have your own bad memories that sound similar.
I'm sorry that I've triggered you without meaning to...
mmmmwwwwaaahhh
sunny10
Posted by Susan47 on May 4, 2005, at 13:57:06
In reply to Re: you're a good friends, Suze..., posted by sunny10 on May 4, 2005, at 12:01:44
...for me, once in a while. It helps me clarify issues. Things I needed to look at closely, they come up unannounced and go, hello, here I am, now you can deal with this. And I think I'm able to do that, for the most part.
Posted by gardenergirl on May 4, 2005, at 14:25:26
In reply to Re: I know you're all sick of this issue right now, posted by sunny10 on May 4, 2005, at 8:04:34
Sunny,
You did good, girl. Really really good.I'm doing a happy dance for you!
I would imagine you feel a bit more empowered now? I hope the outcome is what you want.
(((sunny)))
gg
Posted by sunny10 on May 4, 2005, at 14:34:01
In reply to Re: I know you're all sick of this issue right now » sunny10, posted by gardenergirl on May 4, 2005, at 14:25:26
yeah- I feel better getting it out there, but must admit that I probably won't breathe properly until I get a response!!!
I hope it's the one I want, too.....
But no matter what happens, at least I will know that I didn't act like a doormat AND I spoke up for myself and my needs... a first for me.
Feels good, but kinda scary, too.
I've also just made a few calls to
1) an anger management specialist who will hopefully teach me how to deal with anger instead of being frightened into burying it all until inopportune moments
2) schedule an overdue ob/gyn appt
3) a new therapist who deals with everything: depression, domestic violence, PTSD, and anxietySo I've started what I know I need to work on my issues.
phew....
-sunny10
Posted by gardenergirl on May 4, 2005, at 15:11:53
In reply to Re:this issue right now » gardenergirl, posted by sunny10 on May 4, 2005, at 14:34:01
Wow, dancing even more now!
Sunny10 is doing great! Sunny10 is doing great! She's so smart! She is not a doormat! She cares about her self!
(curtsies)
gg
Posted by alesta on May 4, 2005, at 15:32:44
In reply to Please help- need advice, posted by sunny10 on May 2, 2005, at 12:37:12
hi sunny,:)
i'm sorry things are going so rough for you right now..this topic is a little sensitive for me right now, not sure why, so i'm gonna kind of keep this brief for psyche-protective reasons...but i wanted you to know that i care and hope everything works out. i know it will...:)take care, girl,:)
amy
Posted by Damos on May 4, 2005, at 16:57:28
In reply to Re: I know you're all sick of this issue right now, posted by sunny10 on May 4, 2005, at 8:04:34
Not now not ever. With you all the way. You've done good, played strong Sunny you really have. I'm really proud of you.
XOXOXOXOX
Damos
Posted by sunny10 on May 5, 2005, at 7:29:37
In reply to Re: Please help- need advice » sunny10, posted by alesta on May 4, 2005, at 15:32:44
I know- I just wanted you to read the thread and gain whatever you can. I appreciate you posted ANYTHING; I thought you would just lurk the thread... you are so sweet to tell me you care, too.
I wanted you to realize that you're not alone.
huge kisses and hugs,
sunny10
Posted by sunny10 on May 5, 2005, at 7:35:20
In reply to Re: I know you're all sick of this issue right now » sunny10, posted by Damos on May 4, 2005, at 16:57:28
the waiting for a response (and talking normally to him on the phone while it is in the mail) is nerve-wracking.
But I have stood up for myself. I made myself heard in a form that cannot be interrupted, or the subject derailed...
Of course, he may read the first few lines and burn it- but then THAT will be my answer; that he doesn't care enough about my point of view for there to BE any relationship.
The part about requesting boundaries is actually within the last page, so I'll know if he bothers to read it... I didn't do that on purpose, but as I was sitting on my couch last night, I realized that I would know by his response if he actually reads the whole thing...
I was strong enough to mail it; I'm strong enough to wait for a response;I was strong enough to mail it; I'm strong enough to wait for a response;I was strong enough to mail it; I'm strong enough to wait for a response;I was strong enough to mail it; I'm strong enough to wait for a response;I was strong enough to mail it; I'm strong enough to wait for a response;
My newest mantra....
-sunny10
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 5, 2005, at 8:23:15
In reply to Re: I am simply doing the best that I can, folks, posted by sunny10 on May 5, 2005, at 7:35:20
> the waiting for a response (and talking normally to him on the phone while it is in the mail) is nerve-wracking.
>
> But I have stood up for myself. I made myself heard in a form that cannot be interrupted, or the subject derailed...
>
> I was strong enough to mail it; I'm strong enough to wait for a responseHey sunny. I hope you feel some sense of the control you really have.....
Has the turmoil subsided somewhat?
Ya, waiting sucks. But you did what needed doing.
I like a tennis metaphor for this. You lobbed the ball over the net. Now it's up to him. He may not play the ball. He may play it, and fail to get it back over the net. Or he may put it back in play, by getting it back to your side. Just as you describe. And then it's up to you, to play his shot (or not). And so on.
I'm sure when you look back at this time, from some later perspective, that you will see this time for what it is. A true self-empowerment.
All the best,
Lar
Posted by sunny10 on May 5, 2005, at 10:37:47
In reply to Re: I am glad you're still talking about this » sunny10, posted by Larry Hoover on May 5, 2005, at 8:23:15
whether it's truly tennis or whether I'm just pounding a ball against a wall...
But it's about darn time I find that out, isn't it?!?!
Posted by Larry Hoover on May 5, 2005, at 10:56:39
In reply to Re: thanks, Larry... just trying to figure out, posted by sunny10 on May 5, 2005, at 10:37:47
> whether it's truly tennis or whether I'm just pounding a ball against a wall...
>
> But it's about darn time I find that out, isn't it?!?!Tennis is, or can be, a long match.....
In the greater scheme of things, the bigger picture, this is one volley over the net....
You're right, it's time to find out if there even is a match.
Best,
Lar
Posted by sunny10 on May 5, 2005, at 11:41:07
In reply to Re: thanks, Larry... just trying to figure out » sunny10, posted by Larry Hoover on May 5, 2005, at 10:56:39
This is the end of the thread.
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