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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 13 of 13. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by BornAgainLover on August 5, 2005, at 4:24:56
I am 45 and have been married 23 years, but questioned my sexuality since I was 15. I "came out" to my wife about 8 yrs. ago, and we weathered that crisis, mainly because I had not acted on my thoughts. Four years ago, I accepted employment where I traveled frequently; while on these projects, I would go to adult bookstores to view gay porn in the arcades. That eventually led to some experimentation, at first just fondling other men. Later, I would chat with other married men and started meeting men locally.
I was also looking at gay porn on the computer at home. My two oldest sons (14 and 11 at the time) had caught me at the same time I came out to my wife, then caught me again in recent months. Last Oct., my wife and I had another falling out over this issue, but I "promised" (meaning insincerely on my part) that I would quit the porn. I did for about 4 months, but got back into it. She kicked me out of the house about 6 weeks ago and has vacillated about whether to go through with her desire to divorce me or to consider letting me back. One time she told our Mormon bishop she would work on it, then another time she told me she could never love me again.
Meanwhile, God has worked a miracle in my life. This is going to sound far-fetched to some, but I have come to recognize love in my own heart for the first time in my life. Although I never told my wife that I didn't love her, I did tell her that I didn't know within myself whether I loved her. But now I know that feeling of love. It has truly changed my life.
Unfortunately, it now appears that it is too late. Any hope for me? I would love to get back together with my wife to show her by my actions that I truly love her. One of the ways I can do that is to always think before I act, "How would this make my wife feel?" But I don't think she will ever consider it. Help!!!!
Posted by Lorne on August 5, 2005, at 14:25:33
In reply to Wife wants a divorce, posted by BornAgainLover on August 5, 2005, at 4:24:56
Dear Born Again,
I think you might have to accept the fact that your marriage is over.
The foundation of a marriage is trust, and I think you can see you have given your wife reason not to trust you. You have said you are not the man she thought you were, you went back on your word about pornography, you have engaged in extra-martial sexual activity, and your children are witness to your actions.
The only positive suggestion I can make to you is to tell her how you feel about her, and tell her if she still wants you, you still want her. Then you are going to have to leave it in her hands. If she says yes, you have a lot of work to do. If she says no, then its no.
You might also have to accept that you are not hetrosexual. You might be able to distort yourself into being a "good husband", but that might just be continuing the lie that got you into this mess. Being homosexual isn't the end of the world. I've met religious and moral homosexuals, and homosexuals who are good fathers. They just make very poor hetrosexual is all.
Lorne
Posted by Tamar on August 5, 2005, at 16:41:56
In reply to Wife wants a divorce, posted by BornAgainLover on August 5, 2005, at 4:24:56
Gosh, that’s a complicated situation! There are so many possible threads. I have a few questions, which you don’t have to answer of course.Do you think you’re gay, or are you bisexual? If you’re gay then I worry that however much you love your wife you will have difficulties. There’s a big question of how to fulfil both your sexual needs and her sexual needs within your marriage. She might expect you to give up your gay sexual identity, and that might be nearly impossible for you, especially if you feel you haven’t fully explored all the possible ways of loving a man.
But if you’re bisexual maybe it’s easier to maintain a physical relationship with your wife. Of course, even as a bisexual there will probably always be some curiosity about physical intimacy with men. But, on the other hand, curiosity about intimacy with other people seems to be part of the human condition. Even if you were straight you might be curious about other women. Would renewing your marriage involve prolonged sexual frustration for you? If so, then I think you might need to be very careful.
Another issue is religion. I don’t know what Mormons say about homosexuality, but I know that in many religious institutions being gay is frowned upon. I think it can be very difficult to live an authentic life if people keep telling you that you’re bad. Many gay people leave their churches because it’s too painful for them to stay. Others hide their sexuality in order to remain. I wonder if you’ve thought about how your sexuality and your faith fit together. Or maybe your religion is tolerant of homosexuality.
It occurs to me that you might be able to find a compromise with your wife. If you are able to love her, to have a physical relationship with her and to commit yourself to her, then perhaps she might be willing to try to understand your sexuality and turn a blind eye to your use of computer porn (but don’t let her find it!). If she can come to understand that this is the way God has made you, and that nevertheless you want to be a husband to her, then perhaps you can find ways to be together. I imagine she wouldn’t be able to agree to your having sex with men, but you might be able to persuade her that lots of men use porn and it doesn’t really make a difference that the porn you use is gay porn.
I think it’s wonderful that you love your wife. But I also wonder if you have thought about how all the complications in your marriage might work out long-term.
Tamar
Posted by crazy teresa on August 5, 2005, at 17:13:45
In reply to Wife wants a divorce, posted by BornAgainLover on August 5, 2005, at 4:24:56
If you want to rebuild your marriage, it has to be on the foundation of honesty, not on empty promises. Since in this case, you need to be understood (and maybe even helped to understand yourself) and not judged, I would suggest a marriage counselor over counseling with your church. There are organizations which specialize counseling individuals addicted to pornography, perhaps they could recommend someone in your area.
Do you realize how hard it will be to convince your wife? I'm in no way trying to encourage you to give up, just pointing out to you that there may be things you consider unreasonable that she could require from you to be able to believe you (disconnecting the internet, finding a job that does not involve travel, etc.)
I sincerly admire that you'd like to fix things.
Posted by BornAgainLover on August 6, 2005, at 3:30:02
In reply to Re: Wife wants a divorce » BornAgainLover, posted by Tamar on August 5, 2005, at 16:41:56
Thank you all for your thoughts. If you would permit me, let me share a few more items.
1. I know I have given her every reason to never trust me again. That's why I have come up with both goals AND an "action plan," very specific ways to overcome my bad habits and replacing them with good ones. For example:
No internet at home.
Only use internet at work, where it is very closely monitored.
Let my wife know my whereabouts at all times.
Carry a cell phone to maintain contact.
And above all: Always think before ANY action -- How would this make my wife feel?2. Forsake all old contacts with men and do not put myself in a place to find new ones. I have already changed jobs so I will not be traveling any more. I have eliminated all chatting.
3. Can I really be heterosexual?? I think there will always be a little element of homosexuality, but I think I have satisfied the curiosity of the unknown (after wondering for 23 yrs) and have committed to physical, mentally and emotionally loving her and her alone for the rest of our lives.
I believe that my current actions, goals, desires, and my "action plan" show that I am very serious this time. I have also allowed God back into my life. And He has truly created the miracle of allowing me to finally feel love for her and for others.
Alas, deep down I feel that she will not reconsider under any circumstances and that I have absolutely no chance to show her how much I really value her and love her and want to create of our lives a three-way partnership with God.
Yes, I have really screwed up big time, but I have admitted it to my church leaders (did I mention that they excommunicated me?) and have laid out all my sins so that I could "repent." In the process of kicking me out, I asked her about Jesus' admonition to "forgive seventy times seven" and she claims that she has already met that quota. So then I have to wonder if God is ever going to forgive me, either.
Posted by Tamar on August 6, 2005, at 8:58:38
In reply to Re: Wife wants a divorce, posted by BornAgainLover on August 6, 2005, at 3:30:02
Hi again,
I can see that you’re very keen to make your marriage work, and I think that’s highly commendable. I guess I have a couple more questions…
> 1. I know I have given her every reason to never trust me again. That's why I have come up with both goals AND an "action plan," very specific ways to overcome my bad habits and replacing them with good ones. For example:
> No internet at home.
> Only use internet at work, where it is very closely monitored.
> Let my wife know my whereabouts at all times.
> Carry a cell phone to maintain contact.Is this partly about avoiding temptation? If so, it might not be as effective as you hope. I say this because I think it’s difficult to renounce temptation by simply removing opportunities, as other opportunities can always be found. In my view, it’s best to explore why the temptation is there. And of course it’s difficult to live a life in which you have to tell your wife where you are all the time. I can imagine that she might want that, but it might be impossible in practice. It will take her a long time to rebuild trust, and trust means knowing you care about her even if she doesn’t know where you are.
> And above all: Always think before ANY action -- How would this make my wife feel?
A sensible idea!
> 2. Forsake all old contacts with men and do not put myself in a place to find new ones. I have already changed jobs so I will not be traveling any more. I have eliminated all chatting.
Good plan. I think that’s probably essential if you want to make a go of your marriage.
> 3. Can I really be heterosexual?? I think there will always be a little element of homosexuality, but I think I have satisfied the curiosity of the unknown (after wondering for 23 yrs) and have committed to physical, mentally and emotionally loving her and her alone for the rest of our lives.If you really think you can be heterosexual, then I think you have a good chance of making your marriage work. But I think you have to be brutally honest with yourself, because if you persuade her to return to you now, and in a couple of years you find you can’t be a husband to her after all, it could be very damaging for her.
> I believe that my current actions, goals, desires, and my "action plan" show that I am very serious this time. I have also allowed God back into my life. And He has truly created the miracle of allowing me to finally feel love for her and for others.It’s great that you feel love. That’s wonderful!
> Alas, deep down I feel that she will not reconsider under any circumstances and that I have absolutely no chance to show her how much I really value her and love her and want to create of our lives a three-way partnership with God.
Can you persuade her to do some couples counselling with you? Even if she doesn’t want to go on with the marriage it could be helpful for both of you, especially since you have children together. I can imagine she might be feeling very bitter and you might be feeling very guilty; you probably both have some strong emotions to work through.
> Yes, I have really screwed up big time, but I have admitted it to my church leaders (did I mention that they excommunicated me?) and have laid out all my sins so that I could "repent." In the process of kicking me out, I asked her about Jesus' admonition to "forgive seventy times seven" and she claims that she has already met that quota. So then I have to wonder if God is ever going to forgive me, either.
From everything I’ve been told about God, it seems to me that God does continue to forgive, even when we screw up big time. Perhaps it is harder for humans to forgive, but I’ve read that God is always interested in reconciliation. Maybe God understands us better than other humans can understand us. And maybe God is supremely compassionate. I really don’t think God wants to kick us when we’re down.
I hope things work out for you.
Tamar
Posted by BornAgainLover on August 6, 2005, at 21:48:32
In reply to Re: Wife wants a divorce » BornAgainLover, posted by Tamar on August 6, 2005, at 8:58:38
Thanks, Tamar, for your encouragement.
My previous attempts at avoiding the naughty Internet sites were just feeble attempts at white-knuckling it. Now I have a change of attitude that says, "I don't want this to be part of my life," coupled with the idea of, "I don't want to do anything that would hurt my wife the way I have hurt her in the past."
Posted by Lorne on August 6, 2005, at 22:10:07
In reply to Re: Wife wants a divorce, posted by BornAgainLover on August 6, 2005, at 3:30:02
Forgive me for saying this, but your action plan is doomed to failure, because you left the most important part out.
Before you can committ to your wife, you have to understand yourself. Everything you did, you did for a reason. When you understand yourself completely, THEN offer your wife the person you understand yourself to be.
Lorne
Posted by Declan on August 9, 2005, at 1:23:48
In reply to Re: Wife wants a divorce » BornAgainLover, posted by Tamar on August 5, 2005, at 16:41:56
Yeah it can be hard for homosexual men who love their wives and children, especially in the presence of unsympathetic religious and cultural factors. If I were you (and I am in your position to a considerable extent) I wouldn't waste time apologising for things that were not my choice and that I could not change.
And the gay world can be like a club, there's pressure everywhere, you've got to come out and all the rest.
(Naturally I can't help you and I can't help myself, but my starting position is kinda like Groucho Marx's thing....'I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would have me.')
I think if I loved my wife in your situation I would accept her desire for divorce and make it easy for her. Perhaps my respect would be limited.
But it's a complicated world, and when we grew up, and now too for all I know, self-acceptance was down at the bottom of the pile, even lower down than self-knowledge.
Declan
Posted by Declan on August 9, 2005, at 1:51:48
In reply to Re: Wife wants a divorce » BornAgainLover, posted by crazy teresa on August 5, 2005, at 17:13:45
Now we've got the 'addicted to pornography' thing. I would see it as a limited escape mechanism of questionable taste and prospects of relief, all too obvious to all.
I suppose these concepts are floating around in the ether somewhere.
Declan
Posted by Declan on August 11, 2005, at 19:33:37
In reply to Re: Wife wants a divorce » crazy teresa, posted by Declan on August 9, 2005, at 1:51:48
Actually crazy tereza, I'm sorry for saying that. The tone of it was contemptuous. I shall try to be nicer in future.
Declan
Posted by Theta99 on August 22, 2005, at 0:45:31
In reply to Re: Wife wants a divorce, posted by BornAgainLover on August 6, 2005, at 3:30:02
The fact that you continued to act out after having said you would not any longer, indicates that you might have a bit more serious of a problem then you might think.
I would suggest picking up a copy of Patrick Carnes' "Don't Call it Love - Recovery from Sexual Addiction". Read it, see if you identify with any parts of it. And if you think you do, look for a local 12 Step program in your area like SAA or SLAA.
To simply say "I won't do it anymore" probably isn't going to work. Regardless of whether your marraige works out or not, you need to look for the cause of your seemingly compulsive behavior.
Goodluck
Posted by Dr. Bob on August 23, 2005, at 0:21:35
In reply to Re: Wife wants a divorce, posted by Theta99 on August 22, 2005, at 0:45:31
> I would suggest picking up a copy of Patrick Carnes' "Don't Call it Love - Recovery from Sexual Addiction".
I'd just like to plug the double double quotes feature at this site:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/faq.html#amazon
The first time anyone refers to a book, movie, or music without using this option, I post this to try to make sure he or she at least knows about it. It's just an option, though, and doesn't *have* to be used. If people *choose* not to use it, I'd be interested why not, but I'd like that redirected to Psycho-Babble Administration:
http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/admin/20020918/msgs/7717.html
Thanks!
Bob
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