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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 15 of 15. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by cricket on April 6, 2006, at 12:55:33
I heard someone say that for Kafka his father was like a giant shadow over all of Prague and Kafka could only live in the tiny nooks and crannies that this father shadow couldn't reach.
I feel like that with my mother. If there is anything my mother cares about or has expressed an interest in, I avoid it as if it were nuclear waste.
In fact, much of the time I feel like my only goal in life is to bring embarrassment and shame to my mother.
In 7th grade, I got some academic award and my mother so appropriated that accomplishment ("Well maybe you took after me a little bit but you'll never have my personality or, you poor thing, my good looks") that at the ceremony after I received the certificate and was walking off the stage I crumpled it into a ball, tossed it in her lap as I walked by and said "for you".
And so it has been ever after.
How long am I going to live in poverty and isolation just to shame her?
How long am I going to deprive myself of a life just because I am afraid that she will appropriate anything good that comes to me?
Posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 20:58:19
In reply to Boundaries with Mothers, posted by cricket on April 6, 2006, at 12:55:33
do you still see her? i... didn't used to have a lot to do with mine after i left. had to threaten her with a tresspass order at some point. wouldn't tell her where i lived. wouldn't give her my phone number. over that now... but i still have to have boundaries re how often i ring and how often i'm prepared to see her.
biggest problem (and i'll put my foot down about this sooner or later) but the biggest problem is that i have a bit more contact with my father (easier really than dealing with my mother). but if i don't contact her in a while she starts harrassing dad. thats how he feels anyway. and then he is like 'PLEASE GOD get in touch with your mother). or sometimes he is just like 'she phoned me 5 times last week because she hasn't heard from you in a while'.
i need to say to him: if you don't want her to phone then you need to tell her that.
i want to say to him: for f*cks sake stand up for yourself for once in your life and quit your whining to me.
> I heard someone say that for Kafka his father was like a giant shadow over all of Prague and Kafka could only live in the tiny nooks and crannies that this father shadow couldn't reach.
i used to feel that way abuot my mother. still do at times...
> In 7th grade, I got some academic award and my mother so appropriated that accomplishment ("Well maybe you took after me a little bit but you'll never have my personality or, you poor thing, my good looks") that at the ceremony after I received the certificate and was walking off the stage I crumpled it into a ball, tossed it in her lap as I walked by and said "for you".> And so it has been ever after.
> How long am I going to live in poverty and isolation just to shame her?
>
> How long am I going to deprive myself of a life just because I am afraid that she will appropriate anything good that comes to me?((((((cricket))))))
do yuo have to see her at all / have anything to do with her?
i didn't have anything to do with mine for maybe 5 or 6 years. really. then my brothers funeral... but i went with some people for support and didn't do more than 'hello' and give her a hug.now.. it is a little easier (when i am in a good space and can handler her aka sympathise with her feelings endlessly)
but only because of the break.
Posted by cricket on April 7, 2006, at 7:49:21
In reply to Re: Boundaries with Mothers » cricket, posted by special_k on April 6, 2006, at 20:58:19
> do you still see her?
Just a couple times of year, and it's always at her house or some public place. She's never been in my apartment.
I do talk to her though a couple of times a month. Mostly because of my son - he has a bit of a relationship with her, which I don't want to deprive him of because he really doesn't have any other family.
>
>
> i need to say to him: if you don't want her to phone then you need to tell her that.
>
> i want to say to him: for f*cks sake stand up for yourself for once in your life and quit your whining to me.
>
Yeah it's hard. Sometimes you just don't want to rock the boat and it's easier just to let them blab away and ignore it as best you can.>
> now.. it is a little easier (when i am in a good space and can handler her aka sympathise with her feelings endlessly)
>
It's great you can do that much. I think my mother wants that too. Wants me to say "oh i know how difficult it is and how you suffer, blah, blah, blah"I have such a huge feeling of revulsion whenever I hear her voice though. I want to vomit, I feel like I need a shower, like bugs are crawling on me or something.
Last time she called she said, "Don't you think it's about time you did something with your life?"
I said, "I was thinking of taking up heroin. And then there's homicide of course. The murder rate has dipped far too low in New York. I really think I could turn that around."
She was not amused.
And the sad part is that I wasn't really joking. The temptation to do something self-destructive just to spite her is so great sometimes.
Posted by special_k on April 7, 2006, at 10:10:41
In reply to Re: Boundaries with Mothers, posted by cricket on April 7, 2006, at 7:49:21
> I do talk to her though a couple of times a month. Mostly because of my son - he has a bit of a relationship with her, which I don't want to deprive him of because he really doesn't have any other family.
does he seem to enjoy her company
(i'm just wondering whether the family ties are worth it)> Yeah it's hard. Sometimes you just don't want to rock the boat and it's easier just to let them blab away and ignore it as best you can.
yeah. and i kinda feel sorry for my dad too. just feel mad / frustrated with him sometimes.
> It's great you can do that much. I think my mother wants that too. Wants me to say "oh i know how difficult it is and how you suffer, blah, blah, blah"
yeah. i can only do it in small doses. and i find myself biting my lip one hell of a lot. it is really hard. as a kid i didn't know hwo to deal with her. couldn't face her really. but then it was just the two of us. it was freaky meeting her and other people a while back. i noticed how other people delt with her. and sometimes i was like omg i just have to try that (basically just change the topic of conversation and go 'hey gee wow look at that' and that will distract her onto something else!!!!!) i mean omg that saves how much time of sitting there gritting ones teeth while she lectures you on how upset she is about something or other that happened half a year ago (which probly didnt even happen). sigh. it is hard.
> I have such a huge feeling of revulsion whenever I hear her voice though. I want to vomit, I feel like I need a shower, like bugs are crawling on me or something.i used to feel like that.
i did.
for so many years.
so many.
i hated her so much. so much. used to fantasise about killing her when i was a kid. a lot. but i only got really very serious about it once i was old enough to be put away for a very long time... ugh. horrible horrible memories / thoughts. but yeah i understand hatred i do.
> Last time she called she said, "Don't you think it's about time you did something with your life?"> I said, "I was thinking of taking up heroin. And then there's homicide of course. The murder rate has dipped far too low in New York. I really think I could turn that around."
> She was not amused.
> And the sad part is that I wasn't really joking. The temptation to do something self-destructive just to spite her is so great sometimes.yeah. i wonder if my SI is about that.
'cause she was destroying me on the inside
on the inside where nobody could see...:-(
:-(
:-(i dunno how to get away from this sh*t...
maybe it helps to talk about how things were (how you remember them to be in the sense of how you felt and stuff as a kid)
why?
in terms of the disgust etc...
but i have to admit what helped me the most in dealing with my mother...
was the interpersonal effectiveness skills i learned in DBT. why? 'cause who gives a f*ck about the dx (or lack thereof) my mother doesn't understand emotions and how her emotions rule her life (and the life of everyone else unless they know how to handle her emotions)
and in DBT...
i used emotion regulation skills on her (if that makes sense) she is getting wound up...
distract her
soothe her (couldn't manage that very often but distraction was much much easier)and for me too...
sarcasm... hatred... i think she could hear it and that would get her going good and proper... sigh... and we would wind each other up something chronic.
seeing how other people delt with her... amazing.
maybe you could talk about learning some strategies for dealing with her from your t?
maybe?
like what sorts of responses / comebacks to those kinds of comments. i dunno... i'm not very good at this either :-(
Posted by cricket on April 7, 2006, at 15:02:28
In reply to Re: Boundaries with Mothers » cricket, posted by special_k on April 7, 2006, at 10:10:41
> does he seem to enjoy her company
> (i'm just wondering whether the family ties are worth it)
He likes the idea of having a grandma. Not sure whether he really enjoys her company so much.
So mostly it's probably not worth it. We have very much cut down our interactions.
>
>
> yeah. i wonder if my SI is about that.
> 'cause she was destroying me on the inside
> on the inside where nobody could see...
>
> :-(
> :-(
> :-(
>
(((((special_k)))))))> i dunno how to get away from this sh*t...
>
>
> but i have to admit what helped me the most in dealing with my mother...
>
> was the interpersonal effectiveness skills i learned in DBT. why? 'cause who gives a f*ck about the dx (or lack thereof) my mother doesn't understand emotions and how her emotions rule her life (and the life of everyone else unless they know how to handle her emotions)
>
> and in DBT...
>
> i used emotion regulation skills on her (if that makes sense) she is getting wound up...
>
> distract her
> soothe her (couldn't manage that very often but distraction was much much easier)
>
> and for me too...
>
Actually I think that is what would help me the most too. The little bit I can do it.> maybe you could talk about learning some strategies for dealing with her from your t?
>
> maybe?
>
> like what sorts of responses / comebacks to those kinds of comments. i dunno... i'm not very good at this either :-(He's actually very good at giving me those "interpersonal effectiveness" skills when it comes to work colleagues.
For my mother though, he seems to take a different approach. He says things like, "you could write a story and show her to be the monster that she is." I think that her damage was so insidious that he just wants me to recognize it or something.
From what you've said about your mother, it sounds like you know what I mean about insidious. :-(
And the fact is my mother is the charmer, the beauty (I'm the outcast) and most of society would look at her and her life and say, "oh what a delightful person".
Thanks for talking me through this. You doing okay?
Posted by special_k on April 9, 2006, at 5:43:33
In reply to Re: Boundaries with Mothers, posted by cricket on April 7, 2006, at 15:02:28
You know how sometimes you worry about being heartless / having no feelings... Is part of that about your hating your mother?
I'm just wondering...
Cause at times... I hate mine a lot.
Only very recently (in the past couple years)
I've felt a bit more sympathetic to her.
I used to hate her real bad...> He's actually very good at giving me those "interpersonal effectiveness" skills when it comes to work colleagues.
yep.
> For my mother though, he seems to take a different approach. He says things like, "you could write a story and show her to be the monster that she is." I think that her damage was so insidious that he just wants me to recognize it or something.Maybe he wants to normalise your hatred of her?
Hating her... Doesn't make you heartless...
> From what you've said about your mother, it sounds like you know what I mean about insidious. :-(Yes. We were not a good match, not a good match at all. I can see that now. We wind each other up something chronic.
> And the fact is my mother is the charmer, the beauty (I'm the outcast) and most of society would look at her and her life and say, "oh what a delightful person".Yeah. I understand.
> Thanks for talking me through this. You doing okay?Yeah ok.
Thanks for asking.
Posted by crazy teresa on April 9, 2006, at 20:32:10
In reply to Boundaries with Mothers, posted by cricket on April 6, 2006, at 12:55:33
Have you read "Changes That Heal"? It really helped me see no one is one-up on me. It's just a matter of perspective.
You CAN stop believing her selfish b*llshit and find peace! It's not easy, but you can do it.
XOXOX
Posted by cricket on April 10, 2006, at 15:26:32
In reply to Re: Boundaries with Mothers » cricket, posted by special_k on April 9, 2006, at 5:43:33
> You know how sometimes you worry about being heartless / having no feelings... Is part of that about your hating your mother?
>
Yes, I think you are onto something. Not clear yet. But I think they are related.
>
Posted by cricket on April 10, 2006, at 15:27:48
In reply to Re: Boundaries with Mothers » cricket, posted by crazy teresa on April 9, 2006, at 20:32:10
>
> You CAN stop believing her selfish b*llshit and find peace! It's not easy, but you can do it.Thank you Crazy T. I appreciate the support. I'll take a look at the book.
Posted by special_k on April 10, 2006, at 23:01:29
In reply to Re: Boundaries with Mothers » special_k, posted by cricket on April 10, 2006, at 15:26:32
> > You know how sometimes you worry about being heartless / having no feelings... Is part of that about your hating your mother?
> Yes, I think you are onto something. Not clear yet. But I think they are related.
is it maybe that you are supposed to love your mother and so if you were capable of love you would surely have loved your mother and so if you don't love your mother then maybe you aren't capable of loving anybody?
or is there more to it...
dunno...
i wonder if you go numb sometimes because things would feel too painful otherwise
(like with your relationship with your partner. things are amicable enough but then you can't afford to invest more emotionally or you would only feel hurt over his affairs and stuff so you just go numb and don't let it worry you. because otherwise... just more hurts in the long run).
and if you really cared what your mother thought of you...
Posted by cricket on April 14, 2006, at 10:06:06
In reply to Re: Boundaries with Mothers, posted by special_k on April 10, 2006, at 23:01:29
>
Been thinking a bit more about this.
> is it maybe that you are supposed to love your mother and so if you were capable of love you would surely have loved your mother and so if you don't love your mother then maybe you aren't capable of loving anybody?
>
> or is there more to it...I think that is part of it.
Here's the background for what it's worth...
My mother rejected me from birth, refused to look at me, name me. She was just a kid herself. She had the papers signed for my adoption but because she was underage my grandparents overruled her and she was forced to live with me and I must have been a constant reminder of her rejection by my father (whoever the h*ll he was) and her own shame. And on top of that my grandparents adored me and I don't think were too delighted with her at this stage.
I have a picture from when I was 2 or 3. I was in a wheelbarrow with my grandparents each on one handle wheeling me (bright smiling faces all around) but then off to the side you can see my mother (still a teenager) turned away, arms crossed high on her chest and looking like she was about to cry.
Then on top of that, a psychopath enters the picture. My mother falls for him and gets pregnant again. The problem is this guy prefers four year old girls (me) to 20 year old girls (my mother) so he will only marry my mother if he gets me too.
Being the true charmer and deceiver, the psychopath manages to convince my grandparents (naive immigrants) that his intentions are noble. And my mother is stuck with me again with another person who also prefers me (albeit in a very warped way) to her.
So looking at this all my life her hatred and rejection of me seems normal and expected. I may well have felt the same way she did if I was put in her situation.
And from a very young age, even probably before we were thrown together with the psychopath, I never expected anything but hatred from her. I never accepted her as my mother. She was just a bigger person that I had to avoid as best I could in order to survive.
> i wonder if you go numb sometimes because things would feel too painful otherwise
>
Or is it just like my expectations are very low? It does seem like some strange attachment disorder.> (like with your relationship with your partner. things are amicable enough but then you can't afford to invest more emotionally or you would only feel hurt over his affairs and stuff so you just go numb and don't let it worry you. because otherwise... just more hurts in the long run).
>
Yeah, I've been thinking about that too. Because I really do care about my partner. I want him to be happier, have a bit of an easier time of it and when I see him in pain, I feel it, I really do.But I can't seem to express it in the normal human way. It is more distant, less involved. For example, recently he had a problem with his collar bone and his mother oohed and poor babied over him and I didn't at all. But I did give him money to see the doctor.
To my partner, his mother's reaction feels like love and mine feels like "shut your trap and do something about it"
And it is that distance, that lack of involvement that I think more than anything makes it so easy for me to accept his affairs.
My t once said that I was unsentimental. I was afraid that he was calling me cold.
So still all mixed up. But it feels like there's something important underneath this.
>
>
Posted by special_k on April 17, 2006, at 0:41:33
In reply to Re: Boundaries with Mothers » special_k, posted by cricket on April 14, 2006, at 10:06:06
well it sounds pretty understandable that you wouldn't have much in the way of attachment to your mother. i could see how you could have decided that you didn't really like her, or that you were a little afraid of her, or that you really didn't think anything much of her. maybe resent her a little... maybe a lot...
did you miss your grandparents when you left?
are they still around?> > i wonder if you go numb sometimes because things would feel too painful otherwise
> Or is it just like my expectations are very low? It does seem like some strange attachment disorder.
i don't think so. i think i understand why you don't have much feeling for your mother. mine didn't really care about me. but she went through the motions for my father. but i really didn't attach to her (though my father said it was just when i started to develop a mind of my own that the trouble started). but i don't feel attached to her.
> Yeah, I've been thinking about that too. Because I really do care about my partner. I want him to be happier, have a bit of an easier time of it and when I see him in pain, I feel it, I really do.sounds like you do care about him. and he will be there for you. and he isn't a psychopath. he sounds sensitive in some respects...
> But I can't seem to express it in the normal human way. It is more distant, less involved. For example, recently he had a problem with his collar bone and his mother oohed and poor babied over him and I didn't at all. But I did give him money to see the doctor.
well if his mother is doing that...
;-)
sounds like you are fairly practical. i'm a bit the same...
> To my partner, his mother's reaction feels like love and mine feels like "shut your trap and do something about it"aw. i think yours is more about if there is a problme then these are the steps to take to fix it.
> And it is that distance, that lack of involvement that I think more than anything makes it so easy for me to accept his affairs.
> My t once said that I was unsentimental. I was afraid that he was calling me cold.i don't think he meant cold...
unsentimental sounds about right (hope you don't mind my saying so)
i'm fairly unsentimental in a lot of respects too.
the romantic ideal of love is sentimental.
i don't really believe in it
(i figure you probably don't either)
maybe that is the kind of thing...
i don't know what to say...
have been having a discussion with pseudoname and others over on psych about transference. interesting. he has been persuading me that the notion is a crock lol.
muffled was asking about you over on psych too.
not trying to persuade you back over there or anything...
just saying you might want to have a chat to pseudoname at some point...
and i'm trying to lure muffled over here...
Posted by Damos on April 18, 2006, at 0:50:53
In reply to Re: Boundaries with Mothers » cricket, posted by special_k on April 17, 2006, at 0:41:33
Sorry to interrupt but I was reading something the other day by Dr Ross the guy who came up with the 'Trauma Model'. He was talking about DID and PTSD and how by definition you can't have PTSD without a specific trauma event. But what was really interesting was that he said;
"But there is another, deeper level of work in which the basic feelings are not fear, anxiety, terror and hyperarousal states. Instead, the feelings are ones of sadness, loss, and grief. This deeper level of grief resolution tends not to be event-specific. It is more about the gestalt of childhood and the failure of parents to bond, nurture and be present, than it is about traumatic events."
Just thought that kinda fitted with what you guys have been expressing and some of what special said over on write.
Sorry to interrupt
(((((Cricket)))))
(((((Special_K)))))
Posted by cricket on April 18, 2006, at 8:49:56
In reply to Re: Boundaries with Mothers » cricket, posted by special_k on April 17, 2006, at 0:41:33
I have to do some more thinking about this.
Actually I think that it has something to do with something that Special K said over in admin about politics.
About enlarging boundaries.
My country, my ideology, my political party.
For better or worse, I don't enlarge my boundaries in this way very often.
H*ll I don't even think in terms of MY husband.
So what does that have to do with sentiment vs. feeling?
I guess I think that people who tend to think more in terms of mine vs. not mine tend to have a stronger, more fixed sense of 'ME' And therefore they are more likely to feel hurt to take offense at more things because more things seem to belong to the way they define themselves.
I also think Damos is right in that it all probably originates in the gestalt of childhood and the attempt to define self.
I guess I am not being very clear. I will have to think some more.
Posted by cricket on April 18, 2006, at 14:50:11
In reply to Re: Boundaries with Mothers, posted by cricket on April 18, 2006, at 8:49:56
And yes, you're right Special K I don't really believe in romantic love. At least not as it is paraded about in our culture.
Because again it's that enlarging of boundaries.
It seems to be an appropriation of the other person. First it starts out with some lust (that's the part I understand :-)) but then it becomes some sort of mutual inflation of the other party quickly followed by a boundary enlargement that keeps the inflation going on (you're wonderful and you're mine so I must be wonderful kind of thing) until it all crashes and there's a lot of hurt and pain.
Of course, that's my interpretation (only having observed and not experienced it myself) and I guess others who believe in romantic love would describe it very differently.
This is the end of the thread.
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