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Dr. Bob is Robert Hsiung, MD,
bob@dr-bob.orgShown: posts 1 to 11 of 11. This is the beginning of the thread.
Posted by jacs on January 26, 2007, at 19:55:28
I know it sounds like a lot, but I am struggling with someone who has been divorced for two years and seems to want to protect the pain, the past by keeping me at a distance, but yet somehow in the picture and I am very hurt. I feel for him and his pain and being abandoned, but though my sensitivities are right there, it appears mine are not important. He is very confused and I feel guilty if I abandom him too. I like him, but I find myself avoiding him because he depresses me and I feel like such a minuscule part of this huge life of pain that I cannot fix. I have had my own pain to deal with and I never talk about it. I always thought you needed to express a certain amount of vulnerability before you told another person about your sorrows (they need to show vulnerability) but when they are wrapped up in their own pain I guess they cannot see that other people have had pain too. He compares pain which I think is absurd---"you got over your relationship 4 yrs ago and I am just getting over mine...." but right after I was dumped my sister was dying of leukemia and so I was responsible for someone's life (he does not know this --I literally took care of her tohelp keep her alive and he needs to earn that knowledge--too painful to talk in random metaphors-- we can only hold up under so much that we do not own. My sister was my life and I would do it all over again).
We have only known each other two months, but he is sure it will not work and so I wonder why bother getting involved then? Why kill it before it has a life? I am really babbling, but it is very hard to assess. He calls, writes and I make excuses to not see him because it always causes problems of guilt on his end--feels bad if I spend the night-- feels guilt because he feels by spending time with me he is abandoning his son (for a 24 hr. period..his son is 17) what sort of example is he setting and so on...it just overwhelms me so much that I figure I may as well stay away. I give a lot and feel so empty handed and hearted. Any advice....teary eyed and lost about this. I am 45 yrs old and tired of this ... I am in school, near done and moving onto to my Masters and thought it would be nice to meet someone, he approached me, but it has been a rollercoaster. Everyone says he is not ready and I wait and wonder if that is true and I cannot pull myself away yet.
help....this may be totally inappropriate. Dr, Bob let me know. I have no idea--just a beginning to reach out for some support.
Thanks much.
jacs
Posted by Honore on January 26, 2007, at 23:32:48
In reply to dating divorced men in pain, posted by jacs on January 26, 2007, at 19:55:28
Hi, jacs.
I'm sorry that you're in such pain over this relationship. It truly sounds very difficult to be in contact with someone who's himself in such pain and unable to see or feel beyond it.
Only you can know what or if you owe to this man, or whether you feel strongly enough to see him. You have no obligation to him that I can see, from what you've written. You've been as open as you feel you can, and tried to build something positive. But you also don't owe him the loss of your own good self-regard. It sounds as though perhaps his rejection is beginning to eat away at that--
I'm sure it's very hurtful when he diminishes your pain and loss. But he sounds, again, as though he's too caught up in his own loss to be aware of this.
Let me assure you, that there's nothing inappropriate in reaching out for support here for anything that's troubling you-- or for affirmation for the good things that happen.
I hope you explore Babble a little more. There are a number of different discussion boards, centered on different topics. Your questions could be on the Psychology board-- which is more active than the relationship board. You might get some very helpful answers if you wrote more about this there.
There are links to the other areas on the top and bottom of discussion page.
I'm glad you're here and hope to see more of your posts.
Honore
Posted by jacs on January 27, 2007, at 11:25:15
In reply to Re: dating divorced men in pain, posted by Honore on January 26, 2007, at 23:32:48
Dear Honore,
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I guess in many ways I have answered my own questions. No, I owe him nothing. I have given a lot, it is my nature to do so. That is what I thought human beings were supposed to do, but I am reminded of the one way street sometimes that I often forget exists. I am sorry for people's pain but when you make your pain part of someone else's then pain has its selfish aspects, too. It isn't right. This was a new relationship, I thought it had some hope, but I don't know. I hate endings. It will be another loss and I am not good at handling those--overwhelmed by them actually. I know the psych board, but never wrote there. I know the medication board here from years ago when I was so scared to even take so much as an aspirin and that board was terrific. It is hard to reach out-- thank you for reaching back.
Jacquie
> Hi, jacs.
>
> I'm sorry that you're in such pain over this relationship. It truly sounds very difficult to be in contact with someone who's himself in such pain and unable to see or feel beyond it.
>
> Only you can know what or if you owe to this man, or whether you feel strongly enough to see him. You have no obligation to him that I can see, from what you've written. You've been as open as you feel you can, and tried to build something positive. But you also don't owe him the loss of your own good self-regard. It sounds as though perhaps his rejection is beginning to eat away at that--
>
> I'm sure it's very hurtful when he diminishes your pain and loss. But he sounds, again, as though he's too caught up in his own loss to be aware of this.
>
> Let me assure you, that there's nothing inappropriate in reaching out for support here for anything that's troubling you-- or for affirmation for the good things that happen.
>
> I hope you explore Babble a little more. There are a number of different discussion boards, centered on different topics. Your questions could be on the Psychology board-- which is more active than the relationship board. You might get some very helpful answers if you wrote more about this there.
>
> There are links to the other areas on the top and bottom of discussion page.
>
> I'm glad you're here and hope to see more of your posts.
>
> Honore
Posted by Honore on January 27, 2007, at 13:58:04
In reply to Re: dating divorced men in pain, posted by jacs on January 27, 2007, at 11:25:15
Hi again, jacs.
In the aftermath of your sister's death, losses must be awful. I can't even imagine how devastating that must be. They're hard, anyway-- but when you've lost someone who meant so much, I can imagine (and know, in my own way, actually) that it's even more difficult to let go.
I'm extremely sorry that you lost her so soon. I wanted to say that, because I didn't yesterday.
Avoiding your bf, though, might prolong things, and not avoid the separation. Maybe you need to let things go slowly, though, despite the cost of continuing.
Sometimes talking things through helps lighten the burden. Maybe you could tell me a little more about yourself and other relationships--whether family or friends?
By the way, have you seen the social board? I think it's relatively new. Sometimes that can be fun-- nothing too heavy (well, sometimes)-- but anything. Maybe you'd enjoy it.
Honore
Posted by jacs on January 27, 2007, at 15:33:29
In reply to Re: dating divorced men in pain, posted by Honore on January 27, 2007, at 13:58:04
Honore,
The loss of my sister eclipses any loss I have ever had. She was 41 and had leukemia and when nothing else worked she had a stem cell transplant that failed. I came out to live with her to help keep her alive and she died. I know it was a result of the transplant, but when someone's life is in your hands--literally--it is overwhelming as anyone who has been there could attest--nothing else matters--nothing compares--what matters is helping them survive...from their meds, to hooking up their water pumps, to changing their antibiotic lines and cleaning their lines, I cannot tell you how I never in my life thought I would be at my sisters knees hooking up a water pump to an i.v. line coming out of her chest. I am so grateful I was there for her and I would do it all over again, but when someone you have only known for two months wants to know why your life has been painful--they have not earned that yet. It was an experience that was unreal--surreal--and I knew we were losing her.
This man in my life (he may be gone now as I have not heard anything from him--he doesn't ask to go ut on a date, but invites me to hockey games--son as a buffer and also a way to no communicate) He is not capable. He feels that if he spends time with me he may be abandoning his son and so I absorb his guilt and I can only carry my own burdens. I think he thinks getting on with his life is just having a standby date, but we don't really even do that. It is really pathetic. I have not seen him since the 17th of this month. I came back from vacation (went to his house and made dinner) spent the night and then the next day was all about guilt and how my spending the night etc. was somehow abandoning son. His son is 17.....I am no insensitive, but I figure why bother seeing him if it has backlash. My feeling is it is not worth it. So, I bailed out on getting together that weekend. Here is how it works to me; if your analysis is that by my spending the night you are abandoning your son, then logic would have it that I do not spend the night anymore, but he asked me over and when I said "am I staying over?" he said "well how do you feel about it? let's decide when you get here." HUH? I wrote an email and decided against the whole thing. I am your guest and you have me planning my coming to your house? This is a 50 year old man who should have this part figured out. I try to see the vulnerability but he basically told me that since we are only dating that he is not obligated to accomodate my sensitivities....this is after I alluded to feeling marginalized (asked to leave when the ex-wife comes over because it is the marriage house, etc.) I have never been through this before,not ever. I think it is very odd behavior and it is painful for someone who cared and I have done nothing, nothing. I have just been there, but I think not for myself.
My other relationships have been few and far between, I have spent a lot of time trying to survive my life. I am an older student 45 at a very good college, he is a professor there (nothing wrong with this as long as I don't take his classes, which I would never take anyway) and he approached me. I feel like such a fool.I don't know how to talk to him. He analyzes everything I say to find something wrong with it and then it makes me feel like a fool for having feelings. I though the bes thing to do was to write him and end it. But I can't even do that.
When we met he was certain it would never work and I thought...then why ask someone out to begin with? He wants it to fail or he cannot get out of it like me?My family....my dad died when I was 13, my mother is alive and well, I have another sister. Little communication. My neice is in Seattle and communicates sometimes and my brother in law just started back to communicating. Losing my sister was very hard on him and there was a big split in the family but I never closed the door on him, not ever.
I always want things to work coming from a family where they just never did.
Heard enough? I am starting classes Monday and cannot enter them so depressed. This man depresses me because as soon as I am happy about "us" he ruins things. He creates a problem and I just fall. I am worn down, and I wear myself down too. How important is he? I am suppposed to graduate in a year and apply to grad school and move on. If he is a part (only a part) of the journey then what's the lesson? I keep asking myself.
I told him it would be nice to get together this weekend and he early in the week said he had no plans and then writes me Thur. to tell me he was workingon his property (new site for a home ) all day Sat and then Sund leavng for DC and would I want to get together Friday p.m. Gee...some free weekend. I declined because I had already alluded I did not have the time that evening, offered to help him on his property, he sent me directions I could not open (email) and I emailed back saying I could not open them and was not sure what to do and then wished him a good weekend and safe trip....that has been the end of it---nothing since and maybe I should be grateful. Why not call me and leave me directions? Email is okay but when it becomes the only source of communication then therein lies a problem....every friend and family memeber is pleading with me to get rid of him....soon professors probably will, too.....
very hurtful. i really don't matter in this picture do I? why won't he just end it? is this a normal relationship for him? or so wraped up in self just does not care? strangest person I have ever met. I thought there was something there, but I am easily deceived as you can see. I trust. I trust you when you tell me things. I trust. I foolishly trust.
what to do?
thank you for listening. I am lost. I have a big commitment with school...they're counting on me and I am counting on them.
Posted by jacs on January 28, 2007, at 11:53:30
In reply to Re: dating divorced men in pain, posted by Honore on January 26, 2007, at 23:32:48
Sorry I wrote so much--- really is far too much for anyone--especially as you don't even know me,
forgive me.
jacquie
Posted by Honore on January 29, 2007, at 11:02:29
In reply to sorry Honore -- bit overwhelming, posted by jacs on January 28, 2007, at 11:53:30
Hi, jacs.
I was so busy yesterday that I didn't have time to go online (very unusually, for me).
Before I respond, I should say that I have had a similar experience in dating a professor, and it may be hard for me to be really neutral. But you seem to have having a bad experience, so maybe my experience wasn't so different from yours.
To be honest, I'm pretty much opposed to professors dating students at their own college or university. It's a variation on the destructiveness (or frequent destructiveness) of a relationship where there is too great a power imbalance. Even though you're not taking his class, it is very possible to have that same sense of dating someone so much more "special" and "important" than you, that you lose your sense of your own value and right to good and careful treatment. In my case, I was much younger-- and so it looks, ro the casual observer as though you are a "consenting adult"-- but I believe the pressures are very similar.
I really feel as if this professor would have to treat you much more carefully and with much much more awareness of your position-- and with intentions that were responsible-- more responsible than in the average, peer dating situation. These feelings can occur, of course, in any relationship, if someone has some issues in self-respect and self-valuing. But it's heightened and much more imposed by the situations when it's a teacher and student.
It's not only that students are vulnerable to being charmed and silenced by a teacher's higher status-- we look to teachers to tell us if we're "worthy" of continuing, of following our aspirations-- it's a very powerful impulse, I think. And any teacher who dates a student casually, and unconscious of that-- who does it for the moment, and with the usual primary concern for his needs, without special consideration for these undercurrents-- is, IMHO, being emotionally exploitative. I do, in this case, this his behavior is really inappropriate and potentially damaging. He's being anything but careful and sure of his intentions.
I hate to be so one-sided about situations--but, if you were very happy and felt supported and enabled to do more of what you needed-- I would say, that's great. I would question his actions-- but I would also applaud the outcome.
I hate to see you derailed by this man. Whatever he his original fascination with you-- he seems to have begun to treat you with a lot of emotional harshness and arbitrariness.
I worry (not only from my own experience, but that of friends who have also been there)--that this could do long-term harm, or cause you to lose touch, because of the hurtfulness of it, with your dreams and hopes. Time and opportunity are so precious, I don't want you to waste them on someone who isn't worth it.
I am so very very touched by your devotion to your sister and the depth of the loss. I wanted to say this separately from my thoughts and feelings about your sister-- though--
Don't worry about overwhelming me-- I don't feel anything like. (Plus, as you can see, I can write a lot, too...)
Honore
Posted by Honore on January 30, 2007, at 21:09:35
In reply to Re: dating divorced men in pain, posted by jacs on January 27, 2007, at 15:33:29
Hi, jacs. I don't know if you'll be back, but I wanted to say something about your sister.
Your taking care of her was extremely brave and generous. I can't imagine how hard that must have been.
It's hard to come to terms with so much pain-- I hope there were also moments of closeness and love that partly made (and make) up for it.
I have no words to express my feelings about it-- but maybe in time you can accept the loss and remember her for all that she was and all that you meant to one another.
I'm sure that your being with her through that time was a true testament to love--
Honore
Posted by jacs on January 31, 2007, at 5:05:28
In reply to Don't worry about how much you write » jacs, posted by Honore on January 29, 2007, at 11:02:29
Hi, Honore
I just started classes yesterday....whew...already had to drop one. Just on overload.
Thank you ever so much for both of your very thoughtful and caring emails. Perhaps this man has been a catalyst to my dealing with my own painful past and that is not such a bad thing. But I spoke with a potential new therapist last night and told her I was not sure if I was feeling his loss or mine! I think both and it can be too much. Sibling loss there is very little written on it and minimal, if any, support groups. I was dumbfounded when I cam back here from Seattle ( I am in Massachussetts) to go to Hospice and they told me there was nothing....sibling loss...I was warned by a dear friend of my sister's before Diana passed away, this woman said the sibling is the "forgotten mourner' and she wanted me to know so I would have some preparation. She had lost a sister too. And she was not kidding.....everyone flocked to the husband, the daughter and my mother and the other parents and I thought "my God, I was with her always, where were you guys?" Not to be at center stage, but it was a loss for all of us! They were hardly there. But you know what, you are very right and I am grateful for all the time I got to spend with her as painful as it was, she trusted me with her life--she never panicked (when I always did) -- she always trusted and we were joined at the hip and I so miss her. It it just mind boggling to me that she is gone you don't expect to lose your siblings. You grow old together either getting along or fighting all the way, but you never, or at least I never thought, we wuld be separated the way we were.
I will see this guy I am dating maybe this weekend and I intend to have a talk with him. He knows something has been up.
You are very perceptive and smart. What was your major in college?
If I were not 45 years old I would not be dating this man. I can assure you. He is only 5 years older than me. His SECOND wife graduated from this college also. He did not meet her there I do not think.
I don't think of him as POWER, I see him as a human being who is vulnerable and who is also very aware about this dating students stuff....we had a long talk about it. I see him as a peer and nothing more or less. his credentials don't impress me. I am happy for him he has the work he does and he is very good at it, but he does not intimidate me. In fact I forget sometimes....that is how meaningless it is to me.I must get ready....I a weary ...up early and I am on medications ... new ones...and sleep very little and I am not ready for the day.
Thank you again Honore.
Touch base when you can.
Jacquie
Posted by Honore on February 1, 2007, at 10:22:17
In reply to thank you Honore, posted by jacs on January 31, 2007, at 5:05:28
Posted by jacs on March 12, 2007, at 16:44:34
In reply to Hope to see you again, jacs. Take care. (nm) » jacs, posted by Honore on February 1, 2007, at 10:22:17
Honore-
well it finally ended...naturally i had to initiate it, because Alan could never do it. he is pretty cowardly that way...just waits to make it so miserable the other perosn has to leave and then he can proclaim he got dumped....manipulative way to end things. it has been miserable for me. appears he has no feelings for me...not love that is for sure, but i did not have those feelings either. back and forth he went, one minute let us see what happens, the next minute, let's not...i knew intuitively it was over long ago and I knew not to get involved and I did. men who are betrayed by their wives ... i do not know what to say. i do know he was a somewhat cold person and not very fulfilling emotionally which may explain two divorces intiated by the wives...but still i am sad. he never accepts responsibility for those divorces which i find interesting.....would that admit to failure or merely admit that you were human and you are not infallible? people leave for reasons and it was becoming more mind boggling to me until i look back...i ended it this past friday night on the phone. it was a a point where i just could not talk to him anymore. i ran out of words after 3 hours and though i am relieved the tension is gone, i am still sad. loss is not something i am even remotely good at.
i was getting used to seeing him and now, it is over...no talk, email, nothing--like i never knew him. i liked the guy for some reason.
that he teaches at my college does not matter to me, i would never take his classes and i assured him that he does not have any power over me. too old for that-- i am 45 and he is 51 -- but i dread seeing him on campus with his dogs....dread it and will avoid it at all costs. he could have been more honest, though he claims he was. " I am over my divorce"....okie dokie...i am hurting for sure, i am angry but then i read my posts and i am reminded of how miserable i was. geez.... we had a physical relationship, nothing more, reduced to that--claims his heart can't open up, which no doubt is true, but after two years moving on three i wished i had not been the experiment. i hope he licks his wounds first before the next go around. he did see one woman for three weeks prior to me last spring...an beleives that was the rebound relationship--though they were not intimate---i think he is very confused and not ready for anyone
i do wonder if he even cared or hurts. a therapist assured me he does because he did open up, but i don't know. i just don't want to be the only one in pain from it all.
it stinks. i am having a hard time concentrating on my work and it is mid-semester.but there it is.....
any words of wisdom are always welcome.
i am trying not to see him as a complete idiot, but he expected me not to have expectations and I just found this out. what else would i have? am i stupid?jacs...hope you are well ....
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